Wills, Trusts & Family Chaos

Hi and welcome back to another episode of Sidebar Social. I'm your host, Jennifer Grinke.

And I'm Dana Stewart. Welcome back.,

you're also the host.

I am a host. Yeah. Sometimes a co-host. Depends on what title you allocate to me that week.

How you're acting.

Yeah. Basically, you're the boss.

Yeah.

Okay. So, yesterday was Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day. Did you have a good day?

Yeah, it was good. Got my own coffee, washed my kids.

And is your mom still traveling the

world right now?

Yeah, she is. She was in Croatia this week.

Yeah, she sent me those pictures of the volcano they saw on the cruise ship.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's having a good time.

Yeah. So, happy Mother's Day. I guess it's a day late, but happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there. So, today we have a friend on and a colleague. His name is Matt Sanderson. We want to welcome you to the show, Matt.

Thank you.

Okay, so Matt, you are the owner of Sanderson Law Group, correct?

I am.

And tell the audience just a little bit what you guys obviously estate planning is what we have you on to talk about today, but your firm does more than that. So, can you just give a brief background for yourself and your firm?

Absolutely. So, the Sanderson Law Group, we were founded in 2021. we're a full-ervice law firm, but we primarily handle family businesses and we do anything and everything related to the needs of a business owner. whether

that's real estate, corporate, in this case, estate planning and everything in between. So, we felt it was important to bring on you with your expertise because we've worked together, have mutual clients, and we've seen behind the scenes what you do and the wealth of knowledge you have. But it seems like your lane when it comes to estate planning is adjacent to family law, right? It's kind of family law. It's not what we do as family law, but it's an important part of it often times.

Yeah.

So, let's talk maybe initially, let's talk about wills and trusts because I feel like those are two big things that in talking with you, you said you get asked a lot. Do I need a will? Do I need a trust?

Absolutely. So, those are the two primary avenues of estate planning. will is the traditional form of what to do when you're planning for your own demise. Trusts are not a new avenue, but they're a little more complicated

avenue, especially when it relates to not just estate planning, but asset protection as well. So, a lot of people, especially on social media, they hear they need a trust, they want a trust, but a lot of people don't understand it. And as we have talked about before, there's few instances where you really need a trust. Most people really need a will, but a lot of people get concerned about the probate process, which is what happens after you

pass away. And the court or your relatives are trying to figure out what to do with your estate and your assets. So, a lot of what we do in terms of this family law planning that we're talking about that you guys are so good at is how to meet a client's needs who is having a family law issue and what to do with their estate and their estate planning as that happens.

So, do people need a will? Right? That's a Yeah, we'll start with that.

Most people do need a will, but there are certain circumstances where actually you don't need a will. If you don't own a house, you don't have a bank account, and you don't have any kids, at least that are underageed, there's a good chance you may not need a will. But most people don't fall into all of those categories. So, most people need a will. And as we talked about, very few people. There are a few people that need a trust, but very few.

And who are those people that need a trust?

there's really just two categories. people who have over $14 million at least as of the current tax year in assets, they need a trust. And people who are trying to control their children from the grave who need want to make sure that a child is educated of a certain age, whatever the factors are after they pass away before that child inherits. But outside of those two

instances, you really don't need a trust. I guess there would be one other instance if you're selling a business for many millions of dollars and you want to maximize certain IRS regulations that you might need a trust at that point too.

So you gave the criteria of people who if you check all the boxes you don't need a will. Most people will have a kid or property or something. So probably need a will. Can you talk a little bit

about what our law refers to as intestacy? If you die without a will, what happens to your estate or your assets?, intestacy is not having a will. It's very you either have a will, in which case you die testate, or you don't have a will, in which case you die intestate. And there are laws because a lot of people end up passing away without a will. And so, in that situation, the law in every state,

determines what to do. And so Texas has some pretty unique and interesting intestate laws, meaning without a will. And if you die without one, basically, you can think about it, the state determines who gets your stuff and your assets. But having a will gives you the peace of mind to make sure that when you pass away, the things that you've worked your life for, including your children, go the way that you want them. So if you have a will in here in Texas

and then let's say you moved to California, can you talk a little bit about like would that change anything regarding how the will is read and played out once you pass?

Great question. So the question is what happens in different jurisdictions. and that applies not only in different states but also in different countries. And so your Texas will in your example could be probated in California or any other state., in the United States, that's fairly common

place and that happens., so when you have a Texas will and you move, it is a good idea to update your will every year, in which case you may consider signing a new will in your new state, but it's really not a problem. It's not an issue. Where it does become an issue is the jurisdictional boundary of other countries. it can be very diff difficult and different to probate a United States will in Chile for

instance. And so what I kind of tell my international clients is you need a United States will and a will in any other country as long as all the terms match because you also don't want to get in a situation where you have two wills that say different things in different jurisdictions. That's a recipe for disaster. But between the states, it's typically not a problem to have a will in one state probated another state.

And you mentioned making a change or that you should update your will every

year, right? That's your recommendation. Can you talk a little bit about whether that means you update the will entirely, you do a codicil to the will just like an amendment? Can you talk through that?

Sure. So the question is how often should you look at your estate plan? And my typical answer is annually. And that sounds like it's a it sounds like it's going to happen a lot to a lot of people. But the problem is that if you don't put in your calendar that hey this

is the time of year I need to look at my estate plan years and years and sometimes decades pass before you end up relooking at it. And you mentioned Dana a concept called a codicil. And you're right that is just an amendment to a will. The problem with codicils and amendments is that oftentimes people will think that they can just write a quick amendment to their will and they don't realize either the formalities that need to be filed

and followed or they don't realize what the first what the original will said and then the amendment may or may not make sense legally. So, what I tell people is do your will, do your estate plan, and then just pull it out every year, look at it, and especially with our office, we're not going to charge the entire estate plan just to look at it and update it. But technically, we would probably just create a new will every time that you update it to make

sure that you're not conflicting terms and doing something that doesn't make sense.

Yeah. Because we've seen situations where people created a will 30 years ago when they got married. They've had kids, maybe they have grandkids, and they have not thought to go back and, you know, dig out of a desk drawer somewhere that will to update. Do you see that happening

every day?, and that's why if you if you plan for it annually, you might do it every three or four years, which is when you need to. If you don't plan to do it annually, then again, decades can

pass. And one thing that you also touched on is you pull it out of a drawer. Well, it's also real important to have the original in Texas. Some states make it a lot easier than Texas, frankly, to whether you need an original or not. In Texas, you need that original. And so, what our office does is we hand the original back to the client, but we always keep a copy and between the two, we can typically find the terms of substance.

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Instagram and YouTube at Sidebar Social. So, in Texas, you're allowed to do possession schedules with pets, so cats, dogs. Can you leave everything to your dog or cat in your will?

You can leave everything to your dog or cat in your will., whether a probate court allows for that or not, I'm not sure.

Have you ever had it happen?

I have not. What can you tell us like a strange is there anything strange you've

had happen or really interesting you've had happen with like what they're doing in their estate planning

in terms of the estate plan itself the funniest kind of story that I have is that I was talking to a client I've represented them and their family for years and we sat down because I knew that certain things in their life had changed and we again talked about this concept of trust and whether he needed a trust and he was convinced that he didn't and so I asked

what his estate was worth. And as I said earlier, the threshold right now is $14 million. And he initially said, "Oh, well, it's way below that." And I said, "Well, what about this, that, and the other thing?" "Oh, well, yeah, maybe we're getting close." And I said, "Well, what about this, that, and the other thing?" "Well, yeah, maybe it's in the 30 million." And then, and then I said, "Well, what about this, that, and the other thing?" We ended up getting his estate to about $80 million. And he had no idea. He thought that it

was worth close to five.

Wow. Well, that's a happy surprise.

It was a very happy surprise kind of for him, but then he started worrying about it and we had to do a lot of planning., so that's that in our world, we don't have many stories, but that's probably the funniest one we can I can think of.

So, I'd like to ask you about trust because we hear all the time like our clients talk about, oh, I need to get a trust, you know, get me in contact with somebody who can help draw up a trust.

And as you mentioned before, seems like not a lot of people really need one, but we've seen people who want to put the marital home into a trust. Is that a good thing? Typically,

that's a terrible thing. It is a bad idea to put your home in Texas in a trust. And the reason is that Texas was formed by a lot of people who are running from their debts. And so the laws in Texas are very pro-de and kind of anti-creditor. So in

Texas, your homestead rights are the absolute best in the nation. So if you decide to take your assets, your what most people is their prime asset, which is their home, and to put it into a trust, you jeopardize that homestead. Right? Now, there is some case law and other things that says that your homestead's not supposed to be in jeopardy when you move it out of your personal estate into a trust. But because mistakes happen and because of

confusion, I tell people that the strong homestead laws in Texas need to be abided by and that you need to keep that homestead where it is, not in a trust., your other question was when we already talked about when you need a trust versus when you don't. But, the reason so many people think that they need trusts is for asset protection primarily. And again, in Texas with our pro debtor laws, an LLC most of the time is more protective. In

both situations, whether it's a trust or an LLC, you have to follow these formalities, these things you have to do annually to make sure that the trust exists and or the LLC exists. But as long as you're following those, most people have an easier time with LLC's and most people are better protected with a Texas LLC than with a trust., additionally, another concern and concept here is probate. A lot of people are worried and concerned and scared, frankly, of probate because

everybody hears these horror stories about probate lasting and dragging on and being so expensive. If there's not a contest, a trust and probate is just fine. even if there is a contest or a problem, your trust is going to be more expensive than people think because you hear that you can quote unquote avoid probate with a trust. And you can, but it's expensive getting in. So, what I tell people is that in most situations, it's just as

expensive to have a will and go through probate than to have a trust. And with the trust, it's more complicated, too. A will is fire and forget. A trust is an ongoing issue you have to deal with. So, it's a long answer to a short question, Dana, but that's the reason I direct people often to wills for most of the time.

And that homestead protection, can you explain like what that means? Because I don't know if everybody quite understands what that means.

Yeah. So, a homestead in Texas does

two things for you. When you buy a house, you go down to the tax office if you kind of know what you're doing, and you apply for a homestead exemption. It does two things, as I said. The first is it lowers your taxes, which is what everybody wants.

After lowering your taxes, it also keeps most creditors from being able to attack that homestead. So, for instance, if you're driving around town and you hit somebody, a lawsuit likely is likely and insurance will cover some of it. If

insurance doesn't cover it, then the individual is liable for that liability that car that car wreck. But if you're if you've checked that box and you've gotten a homestead exemption, not only are you lowering your taxes, but no one except for a few exceptions, including the lender that lend you the money to purchase the house. That's an exception, but everybody else cannot touch your house. No matter in Texas, no matter how expensive that house is.

Yeah, that's important to know because I

feel like we have a lot of people who want to put their home into a trust and they're essentially potentially losing that homestead exemption. they are potentially losing that home.

But then if you put it into an LLC, it could still be you could still have the homestead protection.

No, actually, if you if you take that home and you put it in either an LLC, a trust, or any other vehicle, you're risking your homestead exemption. In fact, you're almost guaranteeing you're going to lose that homestead exemption if you put an LLC. There is a

possibility that you get to retain it in a trust. I just don't recommend it because of certain mistakes that can happen. So, with an LLC, you're saying certain assets are better protected in there versus a trust, but if it's your homestead, your homestead needs to stay separate so you can still take advantage of the exemption.

That's a good clarification. So, your home really needs to always stay outside of any kind of vehicle, whether that's an LLC, a trust, or anything else. Other assets besides your home can be placed

either in a trust or an LLC. And in Texas, a Texas LLC is even better asset protection than a trust. It's a good pro tip.

Yeah, pro tip., what about So, if a husband and wife want to get a will, is this, can you explain like is this something they have to agree upon? Can they come separately? Can they have different terms in their wills or is it is this like one document? You guys do it together?

All good questions. So, how do husband and wives enter into a will? First of

all, a husband and wife or at least two partners need to have separate wills, separate estate plans. they can rely on the other's estate plan wishes, but they do need to have them separate. And now that's on day one. So one spouse goes in, signs their will, second spouse goes in, signs their will, but either spouse the following day can completely change the terms of their will., and

it's important to know when you're going in and relying on what one spouse is saying versus the other in terms of their estate plan that can be changed. And there's really not anything that either party can do about that potential change. It's it's a matter of trust. I think important area of distinction though for people that have their will and they think, "Oh, I've left something to my grandkids or to my friend." when they go through divorce, that doesn't

mean that property is going to that person they left in their will, right? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. So, we get people, they come in, I think it happens, too, without property with kids.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Is another one that we get in. They come in and they're like, "Well, it's in my will. I left I left my kids to this person." And we're like, "No, that's not necessarily how it works." I mean, do you see that too in terms of like

guardianship? Yeah. guardianships like

they're leaving them to the kids to different guardians.

So it in each spouse's will it can provide for the guardian or the c you know the person of custody that will receive custody of the children. that is typically only in the event that both spouses die at the same time. because that rarely happens. Typically the

surviving spouse will receive custody as a matter of right. If both spouses die at the same time, then the will needs to both wills of each spouse need to be clear and not in conflict as to the which custodian gets them gets their children. and those and there should at least be not just one but two backup custodial parents in the event that both

parties die., a little pro tip as we've talked about here too that I get asked a lot is should we have co-custodians? So, should two people be named at the same time as a co-custodian for my children? And as a parent, that sure makes me feel better that I've got two people watching my kids and looking at that. The problem though is that when there is a dispute that it is another place of potential conflict. So

what we try to do is we try to avoid all those conflicts and we try just to name one party as the custodian with at least two backups. And then ultimately is that still in your world a decision for the probate judge to decide? Right? Because even if both spouses agree it's going to be Aunt Sally who's the custodian. the court can still decide what the judge believes is best for that child.

Absolutely. And this is where it falls back into your court as the good family law attorneys that you are

because in my understanding speaking out of turn here is that the probate judge then refers it to the family law court to determine what's in the best interest of the child which is always the prevailing rule when it comes to custodial rights to children. Do you still recommend because I know like in our situations our clients will come to us especially they're getting divorced they're like hey when I pass I don't want my kid going to my ex even though that's their dad. so they're

always trying to like write these wills that say like it goes to someone else. Should they still do that and that can be helpful to them later on? they should still provide for who is supposed to get custody of their children even if they don't believe that it is their ex and that and those kids parent. like you're saying my experience is that people it those provisions are only looked at if that

particular ex you know the other parent is not in the best interest of the child. So, those provisions can come into play and can be helpful in the event that's a that's truly a bad parent. But, as you guys would know better than me, it's a high burden.

Very high burden. Yeah.

Yeah, it is. And one other distinction point, we often get clients who will come in or potential new client asking if we can represent both parties in the divorce, which we clearly can't do that.

But in your world, you're allowed to prepare estate planning documents for a married couple.

Correct.

Right. our office often does provide estate planning documents for two, you know, a married couple. there and there's no problem with that and but our engagement letter is very clear that it says we're representing one party and then we're representing another party. Where that letter and our agreement then breaks down though is if there's a conflict. So if one party says I want

the family the family estate to go here and the other party says well I want the family estate to go there that would be a conflict and we'd have to have to withdraw at that point. So the rules of conflict still apply but yes we can represent two a husband and wife or a couple as long as there's no conflict. So in that situation, say that they agreed initially and then husband comes back, you know, a year later, now

he has a mistress and so he wants to leave her some money. Is that something that you could still handle? And do you see that happen?

, we definitely see that happen, but it is not something that we participated and can do because we still owe a duty to the first spouse. So, I let everybody know, and I'm letting our audience here know, that when two people sign a will, either of those parties the next day can change it. But in terms of a conflict principle, we

still have to abide by our conflict principles ethically. To learn more about today's guest, Matt Sanderson, you can check out his firm's Instagram page, sanderson_Law_group. Their website, sanderson.law. long.

All right. So, Matt, we've talked about the what I don't know some people call sweetheart will, the I love you wills. So, everyone's on the same page in the

beginning, then it comes into our arena and it's the I hate you situations. So can you talk a little bit about how that plays out when after you've done the estate planning then maybe years down the road the parties are there's discord in the marriage and now they're going through divorce and how it plays out and what you've seen in that arena.

Absolutely. So first I want to define an I love you will., it's not really a legal term of art, but it's what we

refer to a will or two wills when everything that's one partner goes to the other and everything from that partner goes to the other partner. So, we kind of refer to those as I love you wills. And, when there's a dispute later, like a divorce, those provisions remain in existence. Those provisions remain in existence even not only through but even after divorce if you don't change them. That's the reason

one of the reasons I'm here today is to help people remember and understand that when you file for divorce, the next step you should take is to immediately amend your will because none of us know what's going to happen tomorrow. And just like either party can change their will the next day, if you don't change your will in the middle of a divorce, your ex very likely could inherit what you don't want them to inherit.

Yeah. So if they die during the divorce process, you're saying they would get everything that spouse had.

So the I love you will says everything I have goes to my spouse. And that still applies whether or not there's a divorce. And so then pro tip there, if you are about to start or are in a divorce, before you change your will, you need to check your local standing orders or local rules of the court or see if in your specific case there's an

order from the court that prohibits making a change like that because some counties used to have those restrictions. Not all of them do now. But it is an important thing to be aware of because again we've actually had cases where our client passed away during the process and the will was not changed and it's that exact scenario where then a bunch of stuff went to the wife based off that I love you will made 20 years ago that the client would not have wanted to happen and

and I think that's very important too on

a related subject and that is tell your lawyer everything. So

say that one more time.

Tell your lawyer everything. So whether or not you're thinking of filing a divorce, it's important to tell your lawyer what's in your estate plan. Likewise, if you come to your estate planning attorney in the middle of a divorce, it's important to tell your estate planning attorney that this is going on and this is happening.

Yeah. And especially if you have a prenup, you need that's something that you would need to know. So

I very much would. And this that's a

that's a really good point., a prenuptual agreement often, and there's different terms and I'm I'm stepping into your territory a little bit when I say that a prenuptual agreement can change the character of property between community property versus separate property. And for, both intestate, meaning without a will, and testate probate procedures, the character of that property is incredibly important, just like it is for family

law. So, you're exactly right. If you have any prior agreements with your spouse or soon to be ex- spouse, it's important to communicate that both your family law attorney and your stay planning at those situations.

Okay? So, say someone's going through a divorce, they forget to take their spouse off, the divorce is finalized, they're now remarried, and then they pass, but the only will they have still has this expouse on it. What happens then?

So it the question has to do with whether or not a an expouse can still inherit under a will or sometimes even under intestate laws. The intestate laws are fairly clear that expouses cannot inherit. But the testate laws provide that whoever is listed in your will is the person that will receive those benefits. So, if you list in one of

these I love you wills or another kind of estate planning document, if you say my spouse is to receive whatever it is, that person, whether they're still your spouse or not, will still get it.

And have you encountered situations where I mean, it seems like death brings out the worst in people. Would you agree with that?

I couldn't agree with that more., death definitely brings out the worst in families because a lot of times people, we're all human. We put down

disputes or we don't say this, that, or the other. Well, when someone dies., and those that leverage those the pressure of not saying things has then been released through death., it does it brings out greed and it can bring out any of those prior disputes that people have put have put down. So that applies whether it's spouse to spouse, parent to child, child to child being

siblings, any or all these little disputes that we all just kind of push away, they often do come out in a probate proceeding. And I guess that tying back into what you said earlier, why it's important to regularly meet with your estate planning attorney to decide because we've had situations where maybe the parties have multiple kids, but then one kid's kind of the black sheep of the family and the will was not changed to potentially exclude that child and now there's a fight amongst the kids when mom and dad are

dead over who should get what. Do you see that?

I absolutely see it. So, you know, we talked earlier about how important it is to at least pick up your estate plan once a year and just look at it. You don't have to reach out to your estate planning attorney necessarily, but these disputes we're talking about that come out when people die., you're going to know about those or at least have those in your head on an annual basis. But if you only pick up your will every five or 10 years, you

may forget how two people had a conflict over here, but they might not have forgotten it at all. Right? So that's again a really good point and a really good reason to pull that estate plan out every year and just make sure that what you remembered in your estate plan is really what's going to be there and in terms of the current situation.

So coming full circle if you die without a will in Texas. So if you die in test state what how would that look for somebody to state

if you die

messy

messy is the is the right word. We've been talking about how it death can bring out the worst in a in a family. And what a will does is it can prevent a lot of those disputes. When you die, you're not going to be able to make everybody get along. But you can keep people from being any more mad or angry at you as the person that died or each other

by sitting down and thinking through what's going to happen when you pass. The question is really what happens if you die without a will? And there's fairly complicated processes. It depends on what's community property, what's separate property, whether it's real property, whether it's personal property. But again, the state decides these things. And what is absolutely going to happen if you die without a will is that any of your heirs and your beneficiaries, they got to go

to court. And the court's got to figure all that out. and it's got to figure out that in terms of fairness and with regard to these rules, these intestate rules. You can bypass all of that though and make everybody's life easier by not only doing your will and thinking through this ahead of time, but by getting it done through a professional., there are a lot of places on the internet right now that say, "Oh, we'll do your will here and we'll do your will there." The problem is that they don't

really understand Texas law. There are other states that make doing your will really easy. Texas is not one of them. And so you can look at some of those other agencies and those other internet sites to go do them and spend very little on it, but you're kind of getting what you pay for because Texas is not one of those states where it's easy to do that.

I think a lot of people are intimidated by the entire process.

Absolutely. Maybe some people avoid it because they don't want to think about

their death or whatever. Can you just briefly explain to the audience what the process looks like? they want to come into your office, talk about estate planning, get a will drafted. What does that look like?

So, the process in Texas for estate planning can be very easy and it can also be very complicated and messy. If you don't have a will, then I can almost guarantee that it's going to be messy if there's anything to fight over because while the intestate laws are very clear about what happens, hurt feelings more

than likely are going to happen and it's going to be expensive for those errors. your spouse if you still have one, definitely your kids if you have them or any other heirs that you want your stuff to go to. On the other hand, if you if you come in and you do a will with an adequate estate planning attorney, what's going to happen is the probate process is very smooth. What happens is that you or your probate attorney files an application, they file the will with

it. You go into the before the court and you answer about five pretty simple questions that you've been prepped on. The court issues these things called letters testamentary that let you pay off the estate, the debts of the estate, transfer assets, and then finally you file an inventory after 90 days have passed. And that process is about as simple as it gets under the law as long as there's not a dispute. And the other thing that you can do with your will and your estate plan is that you can provide an anti-dispute provision that again

makes that process like I described. again though, if you fail to do that, you refuse to do that, it's overwhelming, you just throw up your hands, your heirs are going to be left with an unholy mess at the end of the day.

And what's it look like timewise? Like how long does it typically take for you to draft a will for a person or for spouses? our office is relatively efficient. So once we understand what our clients want things to go to, who gets the kids, where the assets are

supposed to go, we can not only draft, but have an estate plan complete and signed within a week.

Wow.

Wow. And what is what does that cost? Like what's something like that cost typically?

we've talked about I love you wills, meaning everything from one spouse to the other and vice versa. In our office, that costs $3,000 flat. And there's no external fees, there's no filing fees, there's nothing. It's it's a flat fee,

but that's also for an I love you will, which is inherently simple. If you make

it complicated, it becomes more expensive. And you can make it as fancy and as complicated, as expensive as you want, but if you keep it simple for your lawyer, they should keep it relatively low cost for you.

Especially if you're leaving everything to the cat, kick it. I hate it.

Which Jen would never do.

Yeah. So,

yeah. So do you recommend and it may vary in by situation that when people execute their will that they give copies to the family so that you know basically have that talk with them ahead of time prior

to death to let them know.

This is tricky questions.

Why? Yeah, I'm putting you on the spot.

Those are really good question. There's a question is do you let everybody know what they're going to get?

Yeah. you know, my typical advice is that you need to let the executor or the trustee, the person that's going to handle the estate at the end, you need to let them know what is going to happen when you pass because they need to be prepared and you need to probably get their consent as well to be the

executor or trustee of your estate plan. They need to know. No one else needs to know though. And if you think that there's going to be a dispute later by telling everybody now, you're just amplifying and expediting the dispute., if you did, if some kind of equity and fairness in your heart says, "Hey, I got to let everybody know what's going on." My advice would actually be to go ahead and distribute to those

heirs what you want them to get, but during your lifetime, rather than making it an issue of your estate plan. So, if you want to disclose, just go ahead and give them some stuff. If you don't, if you understand that disclosure may or may not cause conflicts, then just tell the person that's got to deal with it and keep the rest confidential.

Wow, this is great information. You know, you mentioned you could go to, you said the audience could go to an adequate estate planning attorney, but I would challenge that said say that they

need to go to an exceptional one like you and your group.

We certainly believe that we're exceptional. Yes.

Yeah. Adequate's not going to cut it here. So, any final questions before we wrap it up?

No, I don't think so.

Well, look, this was very insightful and especially with the trust part. I feel like that's a term that everyone's throwing around wanting to get these days. So, I appreciate you coming on the show and also really appreciate all the work you've done with our clients and all the help you've given us and even educating us on things that we weren't

even aware of.

And I appreciate the opportunity to come here and also to work with you guys. You guys are very responsive, very easy to get along with, and it's a good partnership.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of Sidebar Social. We hope you learned a lot today, and we'll see you next time.

Bye. Hey. Hey. Hey.